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  #81  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:32 PM
seadaddy seadaddy is offline
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An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. If the b*stards keep killing our innocent civilians as they are continuing to do, we've got to stop them by inflicting even more serious casualties on them. They see the U.S. as being soft and unwilling to strike back hard because of our soft liberal leaders in DC . . . who are supported and admired by our liberal posters on this board.
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  #82  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by seadaddy View Post
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. If the b*stards keep killing our innocent civilians as they are continuing to do, we've got to stop them by inflicting even more serious casualties on them. They see the U.S. as being soft and unwilling to strike back hard because of our soft liberal leaders in DC . . . who are supported and admired by our liberal posters on this board.
That's why they attacked on 9/11, because of our soft, liberal leaders like Dubya. Wait, that can't be it. It's because we had a base on their holy land that was established by our soft, liberal leader George H.W. Bush. Wait. It was because we stopped supporting the Mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan & bailed out of Beirut after our Marines barracks were bombed, thanks to our soft, liberal leader Ronald Reagan. Wait.
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  #83  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:46 PM
HORNSPANKED HORNSPANKED is offline
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Originally Posted by bpwisc View Post
Uhhhh, what exactly are you suggesting? Are you saying we should treat citizens of middle east and Muslim Americans like we treated citizens of Japan and Japanese Americans during WW2? The notion of internment camps and nuclear attacks on the innocent represents a blatant disregard for decency and human life.

9/11 was a day of horrific crimes that stole the lives of 3,000 innocent civilians. 250,000 innocent civilians were killed by Little Boy and Fatman. Do you think those people had anything to do with Pearl Harbor? Do you think that the average citizen of the middle east is responsible for 9/11? To even insinuate that this action is a reasonable deterrent to terrorism is sickening. If anything, the radical terrorists would use an attack on civilians to rally their cause.
Unlike you, apparently, I cannot forget the sickening sight of your innocent people in the middle east rejoicing and dancing in the streets after seeing Al Jazeera videos of 9/11. Their glee was unmistakeable.
And by the way, while Obama clings to his last few months in office, perhaps you can offer him council on apologies he forgot to make to our enemies, past and present. I think you'd do a swell job.
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  #84  
Old 05-07-2012, 08:48 PM
bpwisc bpwisc is online now
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Originally Posted by seadaddy View Post
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. If the b*stards keep killing our innocent civilians as they are continuing to do, we've got to stop them by inflicting even more serious casualties on them. They see the U.S. as being soft and unwilling to strike back hard because of our soft liberal leaders in DC . . . who are supported and admired by our liberal posters on this board.
How are they continuing to kill U.S. citizens? There has not been a major terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.
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  #85  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:32 PM
horn78 horn78 is offline
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How are they continuing to kill U.S. citizens? There has not been a major terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.
How about the DH at Fort Hood?
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  #86  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:43 PM
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A lot of interesting opinions here.

Here are a couple of points.

Reduce it all to basics. If someone were threatening your kids JG...or your kids and Grandkids True, CC etc with torture, rapine and death?.... They make it very plain that is their abject desire to annihilate your entire family root and branch and that regardless of anything you do they are going to attempt to make this come true. The one advantage that you have is that you capture one of those who are a part of this group that is trying to destroy you (and yes for the purpose of this convo I am leaving law enforcement out as in they are not gonna be able to assist you before the attack comes or that there is not enough evidence to prove the imminent attack to the point that they will get involved).
What measures would you be willing to take to protect them?
And here is the kicker (and anyone who knows anything about the Intel game will tell you this is a simple truth)......That you are also time constained in that any info you may get that is time sensitive may be overtaken by events (such as the death of your family).
We are all different and there is no right answer to many.
I know what I would do without hesitation and not lose a minute of sleep over in the knowledge that I did what was necessary to protect innocents from injury and injustice, while at the same time meting out justice. But then again I grew up in a different school with knoweldge learned about the cold realities where it comes to good versus evil. I think it was Chruchill who stated that,"We sleep soundly at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would do us Harm".


The one thing I have seen in this thread more than anything else is the posts all seem to be Black/White with no one willing to understand that in the War you are discussing that there are no real clear answers.

BWG...Interesting book you are referencing...But then again there are those who also refute the authors findings...including the Agency operations chief who said he was totally wrong. Have read a lot of stories on the entire issue and the one thing that stand out is the same as this thread...There are always gonna be two sides of the story and two interpetaions as to the right way.
I think using the easy way is right if time and circumstances permit it....
I also believe that if the subject is a HVT and has the knowledge of the organization and operations that would prevent the above scenerio in a national/global scale that you do what it takes to protect the innocent.
I know that is not a popular view....but then again I understand that there are some truly evil people out there.....and Radical Islam is a religion of the sword that is truly evil. And for all the naysayers who say that 90whatever percentage of Islam is peaceful?..I agree...but that small percentage has the entire globe in turmoil right now and they are never going to stop....they believe in one of 2 things...total subjugation of all peoples under the banner of Allh...or death....and they do not care how many damned people they kill (innocent or otherwise) to accomplish that.

Like I said...there are a lot of Black/White opinions on here by people who are very sure of their thoughts and beliefs, and I am in no way disparaging them....Personally I would truly love a world without war, evil and killing in the name of anything...I have seen it up close and personal and there is nothing glorified about it. I also understand/respect guys like JG/cct who believe the way they do even if I disagree and will keep the guns loaded and sleep lightly.
I also understand SeaDaddy for his stance due to the fact that he understands the nature of what it is we are facing.

Just remember this guys......In the end it is all about survival and good versus evil. Where it comes to it we may walk up to the line at times...but as a nation we still try as a people thanks to people like JG/cct to have a concience and not become the evil we are trying to destroy. There are no clear right/wrong answers here...just the truth within each of us that determines our concience and path.

But I will say this in ending....I respect each persons right to disagree....But I used to be one of those rough people and choose to be ready to visit whatever violence is necessary in order to protect their rights to do so.
Sometimes even God needs a few baddasses to even the odds.


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  #87  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:02 PM
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One other point of note......

As anyone who has been through advanced SERE about waterboarding...ask any SEAL...Special Forces...SPECWAR type...

Enhanced interrogation is not Torture.......
Cutting off innocent civilians heads in front of a video camera for the sheer enjoyment of it and then showing it to the world is torture. Cutting off a prisoners genitals and stuffing them in his mouth is torture....
Drilling a prisoners joints with a powerdrill.....cutting off fingers and toes a joint at a time is torture. Multiple raping of female prisoners and even male prisoners is torture. Making someone watch someone else being beheaded is torture.
Torture is not done for intelligence or information....it is done because someone is a sadistic bastard who wants to inflict pain and sufferring for the sheer power of being able to do so.

As I said before....there are some truly evil people out there...and most people are very understandably unaware of just how evil the world can be....

Enhanced interrogation techniques are for interrogation for the recovery/mining of information and intelligence in a very specific way as to be able to keep the mind and body intact while at the same time extracting intel.
If you want to know the efficacy of the techniques and how much long term phsycological damage is done to the interogee?...Witness the antics of the 3 who were subjected to it at the Military Tribunals that are taking place right now. They are having fun because they think they are winning....are still trying to manipulate the system and are laughing at us in the thoughts that we are weak.
Have a good friend who is a Kurd from Iran (he escaped in 83 and is a wrestling coach now)...he said that if they had been captured by anyone else but us that all five of the group would not have made it to the trial..Something to think about.

I am all for the use of whatever drugs would work if they would do the same thing.
And for what it is worth (BWG) I am all for the FBI version too if the info being sought is not time sensitive to the point of being overtaken by events.


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  #88  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:05 PM
bpwisc bpwisc is online now
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Originally Posted by horn78 View Post
How about the DH at Fort Hood?
The shooting was carried out by a U.S. Army Major. How does that warrant an attack on innocent civilians halfway around the world?
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  #89  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HORNSPANKED View Post
Unlike you, apparently, I cannot forget the sickening sight of your innocent people in the middle east rejoicing and dancing in the streets after seeing Al Jazeera videos of 9/11. Their glee was unmistakeable.
And by the way, while Obama clings to his last few months in office, perhaps you can offer him council on apologies he forgot to make to our enemies, past and present. I think you'd do a swell job.
And you honestly believe that should be punishable by death?
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  #90  
Old 05-08-2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasPalladin View Post
One other point of note......

As anyone who has been through advanced SERE about waterboarding...ask any SEAL...Special Forces...SPECWAR type...

Enhanced interrogation is not Torture.......
Cutting off innocent civilians heads in front of a video camera for the sheer enjoyment of it and then showing it to the world is torture. Cutting off a prisoners genitals and stuffing them in his mouth is torture....
Drilling a prisoners joints with a powerdrill.....cutting off fingers and toes a joint at a time is torture. Multiple raping of female prisoners and even male prisoners is torture. Making someone watch someone else being beheaded is torture.
Torture is not done for intelligence or information....it is done because someone is a sadistic bastard who wants to inflict pain and sufferring for the sheer power of being able to do so.

As I said before....there are some truly evil people out there...and most people are very understandably unaware of just how evil the world can be....

Enhanced interrogation techniques are for interrogation for the recovery/mining of information and intelligence in a very specific way as to be able to keep the mind and body intact while at the same time extracting intel.
If you want to know the efficacy of the techniques and how much long term phsycological damage is done to the interogee?...Witness the antics of the 3 who were subjected to it at the Military Tribunals that are taking place right now. They are having fun because they think they are winning....are still trying to manipulate the system and are laughing at us in the thoughts that we are weak.
Have a good friend who is a Kurd from Iran (he escaped in 83 and is a wrestling coach now)...he said that if they had been captured by anyone else but us that all five of the group would not have made it to the trial..Something to think about.

I am all for the use of whatever drugs would work if they would do the same thing.
And for what it is worth (BWG) I am all for the FBI version too if the info being sought is not time sensitive to the point of being overtaken by events.


Semper Fi
Thanks for that post, TP. Your honest and realistic understanding and appraisal of what torture is and how evil some human beings can become in time of war actually leads me to believe that you were NOT one of the American soldiers who lost their heads and went nuts in Vietnam. I hope I'm right about that. America calls us all to be better than that, and you and I both know it.

P.S. Christopher Hitchens who was as big an anti-Islamist as anybody didn't believe that waterboarding was torture either, so he had himself waterboarded to prove it. Let's just say he changed his mind.

Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7u-Wk1aU-E

And here's another video with Hitchens discussing the experience and his conclusions on a talk show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSFT...ture=endscreen

Last edited by GammaEta67; 05-08-2012 at 07:16 AM.
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  #91  
Old 05-08-2012, 06:23 AM
TrueHorn TrueHorn is offline
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Originally Posted by seadaddy View Post
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. If the b*stards keep killing our innocent civilians as they are continuing to do, we've got to stop them by inflicting even more serious casualties on them. They see the U.S. as being soft and unwilling to strike back hard because of our soft liberal leaders in DC . . . who are supported and admired by our liberal posters on this board.
LOL, like a cheap jukebox. Plug a quarter in and you get "BOMB, bomb, bomb"

If you want to cut down on terrorism, you have to fight it at its source which to a large extent are the Saudi funded Madras schools that teach radical Islam. USAID is a better source of stability in the world than the US Military.
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  #92  
Old 05-08-2012, 06:27 AM
seadaddy seadaddy is offline
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Well said, Palladin. I wish we had a million more like you. Before this war with the terrorists is over, if ever, we are going to need many more like you who are ready and willing to do whatever is needed to protect our country. Stark contrast between heroes like you and some of the other birds chirping like Dolphin boy.

Last edited by seadaddy; 05-08-2012 at 06:31 AM.
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  #93  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by TexasPalladin View Post
Witness the antics of the 3 who were subjected to it at the Military Tribunals that are taking place right now. They are having fun because they think they are winning....are still trying to manipulate the system and are laughing at us in the thoughts that we are weak.
Who cares if they laugh and cut up? They are going away for the rest of their lives.
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  #94  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by seadaddy View Post
Well said, Palladin. I wish we had a million more like you. Before this war with the terrorists is over, if ever, we are going to need many more like you who are ready and willing to do whatever is needed to protect our country. Stark contrast between heroes like you and some of the other birds chirping like Dolphin boy.
Thanks for the kind words Sea and Thank You for your service and sacrifice for the freedoms we enjoy Captain.....However, Please do not ever call me a hero as I would never describe myself as anything close to that appellation, and have never seen myself as anything other than someone who was fortunate enough to be a part of a very good group of professional warriors who happens to still be around to be able to try to add a little truth to some conversations.

True, BWG, JG...CCT and a few others are no more right or wrong for their beliefs and stances than you and I are on ours. This is what truly makes us great in that we do have the ability to disagree without fear of censure or retribution.
I may want to punch a few of the people in here out because I personally think they are offensive asses...Yet I would protect their right to disagree with me with everything that I am and have(except for the few who do not understand that you can disagree and respect at the same time, those I want to punch out first and then protect...lol). In the end it we usually find the right balance and get it right. And that is what makes us different as a culture, people and country.


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Fair Winds and Following Seas.
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  #95  
Old 05-08-2012, 03:36 PM
HORNSPANKED HORNSPANKED is offline
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Originally Posted by bpwisc View Post
And you honestly believe that should be punishable by death?
If they were complicit in offering support and safe harbor to those who would gladly repeat the slaughter of innocent Americans, then their hands, just as those of the 9/11 scum, are also bloody, and "Yes" would be my answer.
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  #96  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:00 PM
seadaddy seadaddy is offline
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Originally Posted by HORNSPANKED View Post
If they were complicit in offering support and safe harbor to those who would gladly repeat the slaughter of innocent Americans, then their hands, just as those of the 9/11 scum, are also bloody, and "Yes" would be my answer.
I agree with this comment completely.
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  #97  
Old 05-11-2012, 07:14 PM
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It's on the list. I'm finishing up American Sniper on the plane to Boston this week. May is my big travel month for work so I can usually knock out several.
That is a very easy read, as is Lone Survivor.
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  #98  
Old 05-11-2012, 08:30 PM
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Honestly I think the public knows far to much about how we fight wars. We need those guys in the back room doing the dirty work that has to be done that no one talks about.
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  #99  
Old 05-12-2012, 07:19 AM
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Honestly I think the public knows far to much about how we fight wars. We need those guys in the back room doing the dirty work that has to be done that no one talks about.
Why don't you ask WWII Germans how letting the government do "the dirty work that has to be done" worked out for them. They still live in shame for what happened by not demanding the truth about what the government was doing in their name. And you want that for America? You make me laugh, DD.
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GammaEta67 View Post
Why don't you ask WWII Germans how letting the government do "the dirty work that has to be done" worked out for them. They still live in shame for what happened by not demanding the truth about what the government was doing in their name. And you want that for America? You make me laugh, DD.
Gamma,

I suggest you pull out the history books and read how we have fought our wars. We have not always done things that would make us proud. Wars are ugly business and personally I believe in Shermans theory on war and peace:

* * *“War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.”


As for KSM I could give a chit what we do to the man.
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